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RVbootcamp 1030_1455 have a look if U please
http://www.rvcommunity.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7740
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Author:  Tiger74 [ Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:21 am ]
Post subject:  RVbootcamp 1030_1455 have a look if U please

I don't know why I started underlining AOLs again.. will stop that.
I forgot to label S2 sometimes... .trying harder to remember.
I forgot to do the S2 AI breaks correctly. I forgot to write AI - whatever, still working on that.
It's hard to remember when you can't think in session!
TARGET PHOTO:
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z216/rvrobot/14.jpg
(spoiler at bottom of page)
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1. Am I supposed to verbalize the first AI break on page 1/drop pen?
2. After seeing the target... should i have got only one aspect in S3 freehand? Or will there generally always be more than 1 aspect?
3. I shouldn't have been getting any EI's anywhere... unless they are from the photographer??? No EI in S4 of [A]
4. I got lots of things that look like poles at my site and some square structure. I had the impression I was looking at a "power plant" or something... while I was doing the S.T.... not in s1-s4 or else I would've AOL'd it.
5. I don't know if my T's and I's applied to the site or not. Was the target the pipe/gushing water or the entire site that was outside of the borders of the photo?
6. Was I RVing the site as a freeze-frame at the time the photo was taken or a freeze-frame of when I entered S1?

Author:  Brett Stuart [ Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RVbootcamp 1030_1455 have a look if U please

1. Am I supposed to verbalize the first AI break on page 1/drop pen?

Verbalize? No need. Just declare it properly.

2. After seeing the target... should i have got only one aspect in S3 freehand? Or will there generally always be more than 1 aspect?

Don't second guess what you think you 'should' be getting during your S3 freehand. In fact, don't think about it at all.

3. I shouldn't have been getting any EI's anywhere... unless they are from the photographer??? No EI in S4 of [A]

For photo targets, you do not pick up the photographer. I would recommend not trying to force incorrect data on a practice target. Since there is no life-form in the picture, the EI data was simply inaccurate.

4. I got lots of things that look like poles at my site and some square structure. I had the impression I was looking at a "power plant" or something... while I was doing the S.T.... not in s1-s4 or else I would've AOL'd it.

Impression's don't matter much during the ST, because the thinking mind has lost it's chance to affect the data. However, I would recommend taking at least a 10 minute break before starting any analysis (sometimes longer).

I had a recent experience where I was unable to see an extremely obvious feature in my ST in the minutes following it's completion. It was, quite literally, right under my nose.

5. I don't know if my T's and I's applied to the site or not. Was the target the pipe/gushing water or the entire site that was outside of the borders of the photo?

Don't try to fit a square object into a round hole. If it wasn't in the photo then it is likely incorrect data.

6. Was I RVing the site as a freeze-frame at the time the photo was taken or a freeze-frame of when I entered S1?

Photo targets point directly to that freeze-frame in time/space that the image was taken. It has nothing to do with when you started the session.

Overall, I'd like to commend you on continuing to post your session work, even when you're not on target. This is all part of the training process. Remember, that it's the unconscious that's doing all the heavy lifting, your thinking mind has the easy job of just needing to stay in structure.

And just like the conscious mind, the unconscious uses it's failures to calibrate and do better next time.

Keep practicing and keep posting.

Author:  Tiger74 [ Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RVbootcamp 1030_1455 have a look if U please

Got it. You answered all my questions. Muchas Gracias!!

p.s. I've been admiring your work and it's most impressive!

-Tiger74

Author:  Chartless [ Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RVbootcamp 1030_1455 have a look if U please

It's not unusual for a remote viewer to report descriptions of things that are not in the photo used as target reference material. In my very first S3 Freehand Sketch, which was done at a workshop, I had all the key aspects represented, plus two circular elements that were not visible anywhere in the feedback photo. When I asked Ed about this, he said "Somebody had to take the picture!"

It's important to remember that we are not trying to remote view the photograph. We are remote viewing the target. If no one thing is identified in the picture as the target, then the target is the site. The viewer is free to choose, and the viewer usually chooses the thing that is most interesting. And because the site is the target, and not the photograph, the viewer is free to collect data on anything at the site, even if it isn't in the photo. So in analysis you need to remember that if you describe what is in the photo, you have evidence that your description is correct. If you describe something that is not in the photo, you may be just as correct, but you have no evidence of that.

FYI: I think three key aspects is the minimum required to describe this target, as depicted in the photo. You marked your wavy line as key aspect X. I would say this was the water. Your S2[X] and S3[X] are probably adequate descriptions of the water, but it looks like in your S4 you couldn't accept such a simple, elemental aspect, and you had to gussy up the data. So most of your S4[X] is inconsistent and incongruent AOL masquerading as data. I think your S4[A] suffered the same fate, and your B was right off the res. By then you were probably mixing in data from other more interesting aspects of the site not represented in the photo. It would not surprise me one bit to learn there is a big d*** telephone pole just feet away from the area depicted in the photo. But you don't get any points for describing it, because it isn't in the photo. Unless you can visit the site in person to gather ground truth, the photo is all you have to go on.

Author:  Tiger74 [ Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RVbootcamp 1030_1455 have a look if U please

Thanks for the thourough explanation. It seems to me that you are probably exactly right. I will keep all that in mind. Yeah, too bad I can't go to the site and get more feedback. If it was in my area I would drive out there just to get the feedback. Hmm.. gives me ideas for future training targets if/when I teach this skill to others.

Author:  Brett Stuart [ Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RVbootcamp 1030_1455 have a look if U please

This is exactly why I recommend simply disregarding all extraneous data in a training session, not applicable to the photo, as incorrect.

Good feedback should be visual(aesthetic) in nature and immediate. Neither of these can be satisfied by trying to fit inconclusive data into surrounding elements that may or may not exist.

You can obviously make the logical deduction that there is a photographer or that maybe there are phone lines somewhere nearby. There may very well be a church with literal crosses just down the road. However, none of this matters because it's not the information you asked the unconscious to retrieve. The TRN's point to a specific place, at a specific time, from a specific angle.

A good analogy is that your unconscious mind, the one doing all the work, is like a puppy wanting to please it's master. If you reward it, by re-assuring yourself that your unverifiable data might be correct, then you are encouraging bad behavior. The unconscious needs discipline if you want it to act as a reliable, informational gathering tool on non-training targets.

Author:  Tiger74 [ Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RVbootcamp 1030_1455 have a look if U please

So in other words.. we wanted to know about what was in THE PICTURE (at this point), not what may or may not also be present at the site. That may come later if/when we choose to do a follow up session.. is that more accurate?

Author:  Brett Stuart [ Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RVbootcamp 1030_1455 have a look if U please

Training photo targets are used for immediate visual(aesthetic) feedback. This trains the unconscious to get the details right, and since you have an actual photo, you know which details are "correct."

When you work an enigma target, you may get contextual aspects, or even relational aspects that aren't even present at the site, all of which help to solve the problem set/cue.

Learn to walk before you can run, so to speak.

Author:  Chartless [ Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RVbootcamp 1030_1455 have a look if U please

bstuart wrote:
The TRN's point to a specific place, at a specific time, from a specific angle.

Tiger74 wrote:
So in other words.. we wanted to know about what was in THE PICTURE (at this point), not what may or may not also be present at the site.


"from a specific angle"? "in THE PICTURE"?

We want to see a good description of the target and/or site. If a remote viewer describes only what can be seen in the feedback photo, and from the same angle depicted in the photo, it is possible, even likely, that they are remote viewing the feedback and not the target or site. The site template is a schematic or diagramatic representation of the site, not an artistic rendering of the view from the camera lens. The photo points to the target, it is not the target.

Author:  Brett Stuart [ Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RVbootcamp 1030_1455 have a look if U please

I think we may be misunderstanding each other. I'll try to better explain.

If I take a picture of LA from the mountains nearby, then change my angle and take a picture of the desert in the opposite direction from the same position, you will have 2 entirely different training photo targets. You will have a city and a desert. However, the location the photograph was taken has not changed, only the the perspective has.

I think the angle at which the photo is taken is very important, not because it's used as a 1:1 reference guide for some type of artistic rendering, but because it determines what the contents of the site actually are (that which is within the angle or boundry of the photograph).

Tying this back into my original post, training targets need to give visual(aesthetic) and immediate feedback. How useless it would be, if half of our data described elements not in the target reference material. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it should be considered unconscious error, since it is not what was requested.

Author:  Chartless [ Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RVbootcamp 1030_1455 have a look if U please

I see what you are saying, but the site is the physical site, not the photo. From your perspective, a viewer can describe a target perfectly, yet you will tell him he is inaccurate if he describes aspects of the target not visible in the photo. That does not help the learning process.

If data produced in a session using photographic target reference material can be confirmed by the feedback photo it positively re-inforces the learning. If data in the session can not be either confirmed or completely ruled out it is just unconfirmed. If it is unconfirmed by the feedback it may be likely or unlikely, based on what can be confirmed. The important thing then is the viewer's session structure.

It is common for viewers to collect correct data on elements at the site which are not visible in the feedback photo. Telling them they are inaccurate for doing so will not improve their work. It's like chastising your hunting dog for flushing a grouse when you want to shoot a pheasant. It's not what you want. Too bad, it's there anyway.

Targets designated by a photographic TRM with no specific thing in the photo called out as the target leave a lot of leeway and wiggle room for a viewer's attention to wander. They are a quick way to designate a target and provide feedback at the same time, good for beginners where we are most concerned with getting the structure right, and the way to do that is by practice, practice, and more practice. Once the basic structure is mastered its best to move on to specific cued targets to fine tune the RV muscle. Even if you direct a viewer's attention to a target with a written cue, you can still provide visually stimulating feedback with a photograph, or a dozen photographs, to give that re-inforcement. Even better is a visit to the site, because that gives a viewer experience in translating their site template into reality for the analytical stage.

Author:  Tiger74 [ Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RVbootcamp 1030_1455 have a look if U please

You're both making good points. I like to see discussions going on. I suspect my unconscious knows what I'm going after anyway as far as training. Everyone else seems to have worked it out in training so I guess I will too.
At this point for me, feedback is, of course, crucial. It seems I should still be able to learn to label and describe the main aspect in the photo, even if there is other relevent aspects not visable in the photo (i.e. a photo of an egg, with the giant chicken that laid it standing next to it outside the photo), I'm just mainly worried about structure at this point.
Of course, if there ARE other appropriate aspects that show up in the data, it may do more damage than good to tell me to ignore it or trash that data.
(throwing the chicken out with the bath water). Maybe I shouldn't worry too much about it right now, creating un-necessary problems. If it is a real issue, I'll let you pros hammer it out. I appreciate the help guys. :)

Author:  Brett Stuart [ Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RVbootcamp 1030_1455 have a look if U please

Chartless wrote:
I see what you are saying, but the site is the physical site, not the photo. From your perspective, a viewer can describe a target perfectly, yet you will tell him he is inaccurate if he describes aspects of the target not visible in the photo. That does not help the learning process.


At this stage, I hope it's self-evident that the target is not the printed piece of paper we call a 'photograph.' I have never stated this and do not hold that position, so lets put that behind us.

However, I do not subscribe to your position of photographic target reference material. The ramifications would result in an erratic training method, which from experience, I find not to be case.

Context not Target

When no specific element in a photograph is labeled as the target, then the parameters are set by the boundary and angle at which the picture was taken. Does this mean it's impossible to pick up elements that reside outside the edge of the photograph? Of course not, but these are not the target, they are context.

Say you have a photograph of a river scene. It is quite possible to get information describing that this is a long body of water, originating from a mountain, and concluding in a delta. This may even show up diagrammatically in your site template. This is called context. However, the important thing about context is that it's supporting data. It helps to describe what exactly the target is, which in this case, is the river scene. This is an important distinction to make, because if it weren't true, it would have unpleasant consequences.

All Seeing Eye

We also need to recognize that since the unconscious mind isn't limited to the perception of the camera, via photons of light, it might very well pick up things not currently "visible" in the photograph.

For example, if the invisible man were taking a stroll in our river scene at the time of the photo, the unconscious mind would pick him up. It's for this same reason we can sketch underground facilities from satellite imagery.

A Useless Tool

Now lets look at this from a different perspective. What happens if the angle at which the photograph was taken is not considered? What parameters would then be used? Would there be any? Would they be random?

This again, leads me back to my original analogy, how would the unconscious mind know whether you want to look at the city or the desert? They are geographically right next to each other, but vastly different in size and composition. If we ran a session of the desert photo, would the unconscious randomly decide it thought the city was more interesting and chose that as the target, even though it wasn't in the photograph? I sure hope not, because this type of randomness would render the activity imprecise and useless.

I see no way for this training activity to function properly without taking into account the angle of the reference material.

Training Significance

It's a tad redundant to say that unconfirmed data is unconfirmed. However, if a new viewer is receiving 75% unconfirmed data, it's important that they don't dismiss it as, "well my unconscious decided to look at something else." This attitude is not helpful for either the ego or unconscious mind.

Remote viewing requires rigor and discipline. Part of that includes acknowledging your failures. If you never let your unconscious know it's performing inadequately, it will miss a valuable lesson. You don't chastise the the hunting dog for retrieving the pheasant, but if it brings back a stick, then you've got a problem to remedy.

The unconscious needs direction and guidance. The immediate visual(aesthetic) feedback provided by training photos, enables that. When the session data does not match the photograph, while it may bruise your ego, it guides the unconscious in a positive direction.

Tige74 wrote:
I like to see discussions going on.


Indeed, I'm glad it came up, because it's helped me self-clarify as well.

Author:  Chartless [ Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RVbootcamp 1030_1455 have a look if U please

My goodness, the words are multiplying like rabbits.

It is how it is, not how you wish it would be, despite the "unpleasant consequences."

Author:  rvtd [ Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RVbootcamp 1030_1455 have a look if U please

Quote:
If you never let your unconscious know it's performing inadequately, it will miss a valuable lesson.

The target feedback is adequate for unconscious learning. Focus on the positive feedback from the data in the session that matches the target, and whether, or not you were in structure during the session. If you weren't in structure, make sure you are in the next session.


Tiger your ST looks even better, you don't have to put the dimensions on the ST, since we can look at the shapes, and see the dimensions.

Page 5 S4[X]: remember AI- followed by the emotion descriptor.

Author:  Brett Stuart [ Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RVbootcamp 1030_1455 have a look if U please

For the past week I've been scouring all of my RV training material, recorded lectures, notes and DvD's, (for a personal project) and came across where I acquired my information on photo angle importance.

It's from Ed's Master Tips Seminar DvD 02, at 49 minutes into the lecture.

Direct quote from the Seminar:

Quote:
We like to have target reference material. In training, it's primarily feedback photo's. So you can look at your session and say, "was I on or off target?", and ad-judge this yourself. You can then form or dissolve new cognitrons in your brain.

But the photo also influences the angle of attack, so to speak, that you come into a target. If I have a photograph of Mt. Everest, taken from the south, on a clear day, as feedback material for a student, that is also what we call TRM, the photograph becomes a cue, in and of itself for the unconscious. And the unconscious will come in to the site from the camera angle, at the time the photograph was taken.

...the photo restricts how the unconscious comes into the site.


This is what I was trying to explain, albeit, to my fault, a bit more long-winded.

Author:  Chartless [ Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RVbootcamp 1030_1455 have a look if U please

Saying that the photo "influences the angle of attack" is far different from telling a student that any data in his session which can't be confirmed by the photo is inaccurate. As I wrote in my first post in this thread, you don't get any points for describing aspects of the site that can't be confirmed by the feed back. But that doesn't mean the data is wrong or inaccurate. It means it can't be confirmed by the feed back. And that is all it means.

Unless you know for a fact that the data is wrong, you aren't assisting a student's learning by saying it is. If, for example, the target is a barren site in the Mohave Desert, the student's learning is assisted by the knowledge that the gleaming sky scraper he described is a total figment of his imagination. On the other hand, if the target is that same patch of barren desert, the student's learning is hindered, not assisted, by you telling him his description is inaccurate when he accurately describes the 4WD vehicle that was actually just off camera when the picture was taken, especially if the student has not identified it as key aspect X. If it's right, it's right. Give praise. If it's wrong it's wrong. Beat severely. If it can't be confirmed one way or the other, it simply can't be confirmed. Ignore. Beyond that, don't worry about content: session structure is the key to training success and the standard by which we judge correctness.

Here's some additional grist for your mill. Consider the case of the newspaper photo cue: Next Day/Whatever Newspaper/front page/main photo/target reference.
Ed Dames wrote:
Interestingly, this cue allows the viewer to apperceive the site depicted in the 'future' photo, but rarely from the photo's camera angle.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1525

Author:  Brett Stuart [ Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RVbootcamp 1030_1455 have a look if U please

Chartless wrote:
Saying that the photo "influences the angle of attack" is far different from telling a student that any data in his session which can't be confirmed by the photo is inaccurate.


The photo angle determines what the target is. The "angle of attack" allows the student to gauge whether or not they are on target. Contextual aspects can and do appear in the session, which may or may not be in the photo angle, but these are not the target.

If the student's data points to Mt. Rushmore as being the target in our bland desert photo, then the visual, aesthetic feedback will guide the viewer to the accurate conclusion of being "off target." In light of the feedback, the session data is inaccurate. Mt. Rushmore is not [x]. There is no wiggle room here.

A good thing to remember is that even a fully trained viewer will encounter, nominally, an 20% running error rate. That means 20% of your data, is inaccurate, incorrect or simply put, wrong. For beginners, that rate is much higher.

Errant session data is nothing to be ashamed of, in fact, it's just as valuable, if not more so, than being on target in the early training stages. Having clear mistakes to learn from is priceless.

I think the cue pointing to a newspaper photo in the future is an interesting empirical observation, but I wouldn't liken it to a standard training photo. The variables involved when dealing with the future are different.

Author:  RVRobot [ Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RVbootcamp 1030_1455 have a look if U please

bstuart wrote:
A good thing to remember is that even a fully trained viewer will encounter, nominally, an 20% running error rate. That means 20% of your data, is inaccurate, incorrect or simply put, wrong. For beginners, that rate is much higher.


In stage 2.

Author:  Tiger74 [ Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RVbootcamp 1030_1455 have a look if U please

BStaurt.. you said the following:
Impression's don't matter much during the ST, because the thinking mind has lost it's chance to affect the data. However, I would recommend taking at least a 10 minute break before starting any analysis (sometimes longer).

Do you mean between my last S4 and doing the S.T. ?
And someone told me to put S2 data on the S.T. Is this incorrect?

Author:  Brett Stuart [ Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: RVbootcamp 1030_1455 have a look if U please

No. I mean when you've reached the site template, after completing the final S4. You aren't collecting data anymore once you reach the ST, you're merely snapping the S3's together and transcribing the data into it's appropriate position. There's no chance left for overlay to affect the data.

Who told you to put S2 data on the ST? Never do that, ever. S2 is the lattice, the framework, which gets us closer to the target. We throw S2 away during analysis.

Author:  Tiger74 [ Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RVbootcamp 1030_1455 have a look if U please

Sorry, I need more clarification. Before I begin to put together the S.T. (after my last S4) you are saying it's ok to wait a few minutes before deciding where all the S3 analytical sketches go in relation to each other?
Because it seems like that would be a big help. So I could finish last S4, get up and walk away (declaring break, i assume), then come back say 20 minutes later, resume and do the entire S.T.?
About the S2 data, i may have mis-interpretted directions. I believe I may have been told to put S4 descriptor data on the S.T., i wasn't sure if the decriptor words included sensory/dimensions/ai/ei

thanks.

Author:  Brett Stuart [ Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RVbootcamp 1030_1455 have a look if U please

No.

Rule of thumb, never declare a break after your last S4. You need a strong connection with the signal line when creating your site template.

The point is this, there's a reason you don't declare AOL's during the construction of the site template. There is no way for them to affect the data. Ed will talk about this on DvD 03 I believe.

Author:  Tiger74 [ Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: RVbootcamp 1030_1455 have a look if U please

Ok, I think I got it now. I have never declared a break, never gone more than 40 minutes in session. But I remember now there is never a break allowed after the final S4. No Aols on S.T., I got that.
I think my misunderstanding was due to the fact that I have not really covered "analysis" in the DVDs yet. But I'm at that point now. When I do finish 'analysis/summary/Aol/s', I will include them in my future posts, unless that is not appropriate but I woudn't see why not.
I just need to finish the DVDs!!
Thanks for your patience.

-jeff

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